| Mellquist
Le Panyol 120 Oven Project:
Follow-up correspondences from
John Mellquist:
Itemized Costs
Updates:
28 July, 2003
18 September, 2003
6 November, 2003
Oven Costs
Here's what I've got into the oven thus far.
The following things are NOT yet done:
- finish up the chimney
- make up metal piece to connect to smoke pipe
- frame up the roof
- clad the oven core with 3-4" of clay and sand
- insulate the oven and install the fibreglass insulation
around inside of walls
- install metal grate over the ashpit hole
Model 120 Panyol Oven
| Qty |
Description |
Unit
Price |
Amount |
|
1 |
panyol oven core, model
120 |
4,150.00 |
4,150.00
|
|
1 |
shipping
oven from New York to Thetford, Vt. |
|
100.00 |
|
2 yards |
concrete, with $50 delivery
charge |
|
216.30 |
|
2 |
3/4"
CDX plywood sheets, to support concrete platform
|
22.35 |
44.70 |
|
16 |
2x4x8, for supporting
structure & bracing |
2.91 |
46.56 |
|
12 |
2x4x12,
for supporting structure & bracing |
4.74 |
56.88 |
|
1 |
roll duct tape, for taping
plastic sheeting around sonotubes |
6.99 |
6.99 |
|
3 bags |
portland
cement, for vermiculite concrete |
7.83 |
23.49 |
|
2 |
1/2" x 6' threaded rod,
for holding sides of slab form together |
5.89 |
11.78 |
|
1 |
washers
and nuts for above |
|
1.20 |
|
5 lbs |
16d duplex head nails,
for framing |
1.09 |
5.45 |
|
5 bags |
3 cubic
foot zonolite insulation, for the vermiculite slab |
8.76 |
43.80 |
|
32 feet |
12" sonotube |
1.94 |
62.08 |
|
4 |
bigfoot
sonotube footings |
16.15 |
64.60 |
|
12 |
20' lengths of 1/2" rebar |
3.05 |
36.60 |
|
4 |
2x6x8
for the sides of the foundation platform |
4.53 |
18.12 |
|
1 bag |
fireclay, for the chimney
|
10.35 |
10.35 |
|
25 |
standard
firebrick, for making the chimney |
1.16 |
29.00 |
|
88 |
4x8x16 3-core cement block |
0.98 |
86.24 |
|
4 bags |
mortar
mix |
4.60 |
18.40 |
|
50 pieces |
mineral wool, including
shipping |
|
66.50 |
|
|
|
Total |
$5,099.04 |
|
That's about it. I did not keep track of my labor,
but it is probably irrelevant to the next job, since
I dug the footing holes by hand to 48" deep through
tremendous hardpan and old subterranean iron junk,
and was pretty slow with the masonry work. I might
have overbuilt the supporting structure, but better
to be sure. I made up five 2x4 stud walls with studs
16" on center and used those to hold up the plywood
form. Then I ran two 45 degree braces out to stakes
from each of the four sides. My sonotubes were about
4-1/2 into the air, so I braced them midway. I used
2x6 for the forms around the slab, with threaded rod
in the center each way, and also put a 25' logging
chain with a load binder around the outside of the
form to hold it together. The slab is about 4-1/2"
thick with 1/2" rebar on 8" squares. I used some (two
per column) of the 20' lengths of rebar without cutting
them, so they form legs down two columns and across
the middle of the slab. The vermiculite slab is 3"
thick. Then I put 2" of bank run sand, and then set
the floor tiles. At least one of the floor tiles shifted
during oven construction, so it sits a bit proud on
one corner, but most of them stayed put. Assembling
the oven was very difficult. It took three tries to
get it right and it still did not fit together perfectly.
I think the wooden legs are too easily flopped on
their sides, and when that happens, you are in big
trouble and have to dismantle a lot of it. My oven
floor is way too high for use now, so I have to stand
on a sawhorse in order to load it. But when I get
the room built that will abut the oven, the floor
will be at the right height.
I have used the oven five times thus far. Only once
I got it too hot and the bread all burned up. The
other four times it worked perfectly. I don't have
a thermometer just yet. In the cold weather without
benefit of insulation, I can just get one baking before
it cools off too much. I probably cannot get the clay
and sand cladding done now until spring unless we
get a good thaw and I am available to work on it,
but I will keep sending you production results as
I go along....
Thanks for sending the door liners. Turns out they
don't quite fit, so I am going to have to trim them
a little with a diamond saw when I get around to it.
In the interim I place a soaked burlap sack on the
inside of the door, since it does not go into the
door opening properly. A better door, in my view,
would be a tilting door that uses gravity to return
to closed between loadings. You push it down with
the peel and then when you withdraw the peel, it flops
back up. Alan Scott uses doors like this. One thing
I will say is that this oven takes very little wood.
I take a hefty armload of 24" split hardwood and then
throw on about 3-4 pieces more midway through the
burn for good measure, and that is plenty of heat
(remember I have no cladding and no insulation yet).
If I start the fire at 8:00 AM then I can be baking
around 1:30 PM. But more on that later.
At this point I have the roof trusses on the bakery
building, and hope to get the tin on next weekend.
I spent a week in California in mid December and took
a wholegrain baking class from Richard Bourdon at
the San Francisco Baking Institute. Speaking of Doug
Wood and the small world of bakers or oven builders,
it turns out this guy Richard Bourdon is friends with
my neighbors here in Vershire who want to be my first
customer for a bread subscription, and used to buy
his bread when they lived in Housatonic, Mass. He
owns the Berkshire Mountain Bakery, which you've probably
heard of, or maybe you know him too! When you were
at Doug Wood's place, you were just around the corner
from my brother-in-law's house, and only about 10
miles from my place. One of these times you better
show up here!!
All the best,
John
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28 July 2003
Dear Albie,
It is high time I sent you a report on the bread
baking in the Panyol 120 oven. By now I have been
baking for about two months. I bake every Wednesday
and Friday, taking the bread to a farmers' market
in Lebanon, NH on Thursday and another in Norwich,
VT on Saturday. Also, I deliver bread to three farmstands
in the area. It is going well, and the bread I make,
which is mostly 100% wholegrain, is being accepted.
There was even a line of five people at my booth this
past Saturday!
The oven works great. I love the Panyol oven, because
it has such even heat. Without any thermocouples,
I have to rely on feel and a readout from a laser
thermometer, which I find I am using less and less
as I get familiar with the quirks of the oven. Most
of the bread I bake are 24 oz. loaves that are baked
in 4-1/2" x 8-3/4" loaf pans. I use five-strap
pans (Chicago Metallic #42-5) because I can get five
of them into the oven. Then I can get five more individual
pans of the same size in the front. So one ovenload
can bake 30 loaves, which for me is a $135 retail
value. By contrast, when I bake hearth loaves, I generally
make 16 oz round loaves and I can get from 19 to 21
loaves in there at a charge, which is roughly a $60
retail value. The hearth loaves cook in about 25 minutes,
and the larger loaf pan breads take from 35 to 55
minutes depending on the oven temperature.
I am still experimenting with how to fire this oven.
At first I used all hardwood because I had a lot of
hard maple that was dry. Then I ran out, so got a
load of softwood slabs from the local mill and I am
going to stick with slabwood because it is very cheap
($20/cord delivered) and burns with a hot flame. Dave
Miller told me that he lays the whole fire up in advance,
carefully building structures of logs and then pushing
them to the rear (he has a 6' x 8' Scott oven) and
then burns the whole business down and that is it
for the baking the next day. (Incidentally, he says
he met you at a conference in Calif. awhile ago. I
have baked with Dave at his place on several occasions
and he is definitely a profound influence in my baking.)
I have not done it this way. I start the fire in the
front and then gradually add more sticks and let it
work its way back, and then I just keep stoking it
until it is hot enough, which I can tell my feeling
the masonry in front. I generally use about 4 large
armloads, carried in a cloth carrier, per firing.
I weighed them and they are around 45 pounds per armload.
The oven never cools to room temperature. From Wednesday
to Friday I use less than 4 armloads, and from Saturday
through to Wednesday it has cooled a bit more so I
need a bit more than four armloads. Starting in two
weeks I am going to change schedules and bake on Fridays
and Mondays. This past Friday was the biggest bake
day yet. I produced 161 loaves and managed to sell
all but 5 of them. I started at 8:00 AM with the milling
of grain and began firing the oven at the same time.
I just threw a couple sticks onto the fire all day
long and it was very hot by about 4:00 when I let
it burn down. I stacked a row of firebrick in front
of the doorway, one course high (I sometimes do two
courses) to cut down on cool air flow into the oven
which I waited for the coals to burn down. Then I
cleaned up and shut the door for a few hours. Generally
the first bake is too hot (I get readings of 675 to
725 degrees, both hearth and dome) so I will put two
regular sheetpans on the hearth floor, each lined
with soaking wet rags or towels. Usually one or two
ten-minute rounds with the sheetpans will bring things
down to the low 600s and I can begin baking. I have
also tried baking without letting the oven get this
hot, but I can only get two nice, hot bakes out of
it. My record is six bakes from one firing, but the
last two were kind of sluggish. So this past Friday
I did three good, hot bakes, then immediately built
another fire in there and let that burn for 1-1/2
hours. I used up about one of my 45 pound armloads
of slabwood. Then about 3 hours after I began that
second fire, I began baking and got four more good
bakes out of it. I went to bed at 3:30 AM. My wife
got up at 6:30 and put another 20 loaves in there
which baked off slowly for 55 minutes but made fine
bread nonetheless.
So I have determined that if you are working by hand,
which I am, the 120 oven is plenty big enough. When
I grow to the point of obtaining a dough mixer, then
I will think about more oven capacity. I don't think
I have the physical strength to make more than 161
loaves of bread by hand. But I am enjoying it nonetheless.
My neighbor Neil Hochstedtler, whom I've known for
nearly 30 years, says that he knows you too. He helped
me figure out the peculiar wiring in the three-phase
motor and controls of my flour bolting machine.
I've taken lots of pictures of the bakery, oven and
mill. I just finished a roll with many of them, so
will wait until they are developed, then will put
together a bunch of pics to send to you. No one from
King Arthur has called me yet, although I am in contact
with some of them. One of the bakers is my next-door
neighbor and she has spent time in my bakery helping
out. Also I know another baker there (Richard) who
is interested in the Panyol oven, but have not had
an official inquiry. I am happy to accommodate visitors,
preferably on a bake day: any Friday, and any Monday
starting 11 August. This includes you. If you are
ever in Central Vermont, PLEASE ring me up and come
by. You are welcome for supper, or if you need a place
to stay over, we have a spare room.
Around the 4th of July our two boys, who both live
in Brooklyn, were up. Our eldest son, Nils and his
wife Daria have a baby boy born on 9 May, our first
grandchild, and this was my first opportunity to meet
the newest addition. Nils's younger brother Seamus
is a chef in a lower-east side new restaurant, and
he got into making pizza like crazy since I had a
hot oven at his disposal. He made about 18 exquisite
pizzas, for which we kept a small fire burning at
the back and things were going great except early
on, when the oven was still too hot, he placed a Pyrex
dish full of peppers to be roasted on the hearth and
it blew up into smithereens. I was rather freaked
out about having any chards left in there, so we cleaned
it up as thoroughly as we could, including using a
large shop-vac on the cracks, but fortunately we got
it all cleaned up. Enough of that. I will be doubly
careful about what I allow to be placed in that oven
from now on.
When I get going with my new baking schedule, I will
send you some bread on a Tuesday sometime when I know
you are going to be home the next day. I will try
to remember to call you and check before sending the
bread. The fresh-ground flour really makes a difference
in the flavor of the bread. Also I am only using organic
ingredients, and my bakery will soon be certified
organic by NOFA-VT.
You probably have specific questions that I have
not answered, so please drop me a line or call when
you get a chance.
Best wishes,
John
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18 September,
2003
Dear Albie,
Finally, after a whole summer's worth of experimentation,
I have achieved something I've been looking to do.
Tonight I will be all done with baking by 10:00 PM
which is a first. Generally I do three bakes then
re-fire and then do two more for a total of five or
sometimes six. But I find that I always have a huge
time gap when I refire, and it is not uncommon to
be loading the oven at 1 or 2 AM, or I sometimes leave
the last batch overnight and Tara loads the oven at
7 the next morning. Today I decided to do only four
bakes as it is a smaller sale day tomorrow, so I am
doing 110 loaves instead of the usual 150 or even
190 (the most I have done to date on one day). I fired
the oven yesterday and kept it stoked up throughout
much of the night, since I have to arise at 2 AM to
feed the starters anyway, I stoked it again at that
time. Went in there this morning at 8 and the fire
was all gone, so started the fire anew and ran several
armloads through, including some hardwood this time.
Some day I will have thermocouples installed and really
know what is going on, but in any event, as usual
it got up to 750 degrees or so and after setting a
few hours didn't drop all that much, so I had to cool
the oven down with the wet towel and sheet pan routine.
Started baking when it reached 600 degrees or so,
both hearth and dome, and I put three batches through
with only a brief (generally 1/2 hour or less) interval
between each bake. When I went to load the fourth
batch, I was amazed that the surface temperature was
still reading 575 degrees. It has never retained that
much heat before. If I had a fifth batch I am sure
it would bake nicely. The other thing I have discovered
is that by firing the oven longer than usual, the
heat definitely moved further into the masonry, because
the first batch was not overly browned (or burned!).
Usually my first batch is too brown, the second is
perfect, and the third is nearly perfect or a trifle
pale. Tonight, all of them are perfectly browned.
Even though I understand the French notion of refiring
and having just the right temperature, I seem to find
that it lengthens out my work day too much, whereas
if I can pack it all into one bake, I can make up
the bread batches one right after the other and then
bake them in fairly rapid succession.
More to follow, as I learn more. I'll probably get
the thermocouples fairly soon and then will have better
data for you. I also notice that the hearth tends
to be a trifle hotter along the circumference of the
sides than in the middle, ast least judging from the
relative browning of the loaf bottoms, but it is not
that bad and I can adjust. The last five loose pans
I pack into the front always bake a little slower,
so I tend to put them back in the oven for five more
minutes after removing all the 5 strap pans and then
they come out about the same. I have had a number
of conversations with Dean from Maine as he figures
out his 120 installation. He thought having a 10 inch
gap from the front of the oven to the veneer wall
was too thick and would call for too long a reach,
but I cautioned him that I had only a 5 inch gap and
it didn't leave me with enough room to cast a rugged
smoke throat, so I think he is compromising at 7 1/2
inches. My throat is something like 2-1/2 by 20 and
it draws fine. I do wish more of the fire would stay
in the oven and not go up the chimney though. When
I stoke it up onto a large bed of coals the fire roars
away and up the chimney. Maybe I am over stoking it???
Cheers,
John
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6 November,
2003
Hi Albie,
Here are some more bits of info for you. For the
period 6/1/03 through 10/31/03, the 120 oven at Trukenbrod
Mill & Bakery produced bread sales of $13,046.88.
During that time, I ran the oven on 46 baking days,
and it burned about 5-1/2 cords of slabwood, mostly
hemlock. I paid $20/cord delivered, which I admit
is a good price (the sawmill is nearby), so that comes
to $2.40 per bake day in fuelwood cost. Compare that
to propane!!
If I really crank the oven up there, I am able to
get a good five or six bakes out of it. Also, I am
doing some slow-bake breads, like j"lkiuunileip",
a Finnish bread which means "after oven bread"
in Finnish. These flat breads cook at a low temperature
(250 to 325). I put a small layer of dough in the
pan, for a bread one inch thick, which is later split
like an English muffin. By stacking the pans in the
slow oven, I can bake 60 of these breads in one go.
I also make quite a lot of wholegrain rye which is
100% rye and cooks rather slowly, so it is generally
the fifth or sixth lot to go into the oven. Tomorrow
and Friday I am baking a huge quantity of all Finnish
types of bread and taking them to a Finnish cultural
festival in Burlington on Saturday.
Last week Jonathan Stevens and his friend Cheryl
arrived around 10:00 PM and baked through the night
with me, which was a lot of fun. He wants to set up
a bakery in Northhampton, Mass., and is considering
the Panyol, although he is kind of leaning toward
one of the rotary wood-fired ovens at this point,
so I don't know which way he will go. He used to have
a Scott design and has decided against that type oven
for next time. But anyway he wanted the chance to
see the 120 in action so he came when I was baking
and we had a good time together. The next day they
went to Crown Point and visited with Yannick and of
course were blown away by his Munoz rotary oven. If
only I had an extra $60,000....
Also, I have been carrying on a correspondence with
Patra Rule, who was going to visit me in September
but never showed up. She wanted to know why I chose
the Panyol over a Scott oven, so I was pretty candid
with her, but asked her to keep it confidential because
I know Alan Scott and respect him, even if I have
some reservations about his ovens. Here is a fragment
of what I told her:
"What I found was an oven which is not too hard
to install and has a few advantages over the Scott
design: 1) you can dismantle it and take it with you
if you move your bakery; 2) it doesn't have any mortar
joints in the dome, so the blocks are free to move
about with the heating and cooling and you don't have
to worry about joiint failures (and I have seen a
caved-in Scott oven, so I know it happens); 3) because
the white clay brick heats up faster than standard
American fire brick, if you overheat it, the oven
takes less time to cool down to baking temperature;
4) it was cheaper, maybe not by the square foot, but
my overall investment was something like $5000, though
I got a deal because the oven I bought was originally
intended for another business which could not keep
it due to a death. I'm not sure I knew of other advantages
or too many glaring disadvantages when I decided to
buy it, but later on I discovered that the heat is
surprisingly even all over....I know bakers with Scott
ovens who have to move the loaves around during the
baking to keep things even, and I don't have much
problem with that. Also I know some Scott ovens where
the hearth cools down too much in proportion to the
dome, but with this one, they are always pretty close,
within 25 or 35 degrees, most anywhere inside (surface
temperature). I intend to put in thermocouples but
haven't got round to it yet. But these thoughts are
in no way a condemnation of Alan's work, which I think
is terrific."
Next week I am installing a large French spiral mixer.
Once I get used to it, I expect my production will
go up quite a bit, and this will put the single 120
to the test. I may be talking to you sooner than I
was thinking about getting a 180 to set up right next
to this one. However, I will have to be sure I can
develop sufficient market outlets first. The mixer
is setting me back $4500 and it is a used machine
to boot. As to the 180, if you are comfortable giving
me a significant break, something fairly close to
your cost, I will keep it confidential and will be
happy to continue to provide production data as I
go along. Also, I will gladly host visitors who want
to check it out. I am sure we can work something out
that is mutually beneficial. Maybe I'd rent a truck
and come pick it up at your place too.
On another note, do you happen to know if the Dumont
Industries Co. in Monmouth, Maine has gone out of
business? I tried to call them but it said the number
was disconnected. My Dumont boiler is over twenty
years old and I need to rebrick the firebox and was
hoping to reach someone to talk about it.
Cheers,
John
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